Integrating TSN for Deterministic Communication at the Control Level (ft. Movensys)

Welcome to Advantech InnoTalk. I'm your host Matt Dentino. And today's topic is another in the series all about the digital transformation of our workspace-- integrating TSN for deterministic communications at the control level. 

Now, for the noninitiated, TSN stands for Time Sensitive Networking. We'll be using examples from the automobile manufacturing and semiconductor industries. We want to speak to the benefits of integrating OT and IT. 

In this way, the things, like, time-stamped information and advanced analysis for edge AI, the coexistence of multiple protocols on a single trunk for reduced infrastructure costs and optimization of device performance for advanced control. 

We'll look at the pain points driving the TSN transition as well. And we'll look at what parameters we need to consider when we're making this decision to make the transition. And then finally, we'll see how this transformation is sparking new innovation and manufacturing, which is leading to better products, higher quality, enhanced safety, lower costs, and ultimately improved tech time. 

Now, with me today to help us understand all of this is Roy Pak, CEO of Movensys and Frank Kuo, Industrial IoT iConnectivity Division Head from Advantech. Roy, I'd like to begin with you if I may. I know that your company, Movensys, works heavily in the automotive and semiconductor industries. 

Can you tell our audience based on your experience where you see these industries going in the future with the rapid innovations we're seeing in the area of digital transformation and then how it will affect those industries and their use of automation moving forward? 

- All right, thank you. Greetings from Korea. My name is Roy Pak. I'm the CEO for Movensys. Today, I'm very honored to be here to talk about the collaboration between Advantech as well Movensys. As you may know, Movensys has been focused very heavily upon the EtherCAT market. 

But now, with the new market of TSN, we're very excited which will definitely open up new markets for us. One area where I believe everyone understands the dynamic of the automation industry is to look at the changing of the vehicle market. 

Automotive, I believe, is like the microcosm of manufacturing industry altogether. Vehicles are becoming much smarter these days with the addition of smart sensors with autonomous driving along with the vehicle informatics that allows the vehicles to pass and receive real-time data, which allows the drivers to make better driving decisions. 

Now, same thing could be said about the manufacturing altogether. The factory itself is becoming very smart with the convergence of IT and OT all together with additions of internet of things, the industrial IoT sensors being all over the factory which allows the time-sensitive data to be available at all times from OT devices to the IT management systems all together. 

And with this pandemic that's going on, it's putting a lot of pressures onto the manufacturers globally, especially with the higher demands with the rising cost. And one thing that we're seeing with the market requirement is for the manufacturers to become much more efficient at the same time to stay competitive. 

I believe the only answer to actually achieve these data to market is to be able to go through the digital transformation. In our minds with the Movensys, we believe that the software-based motion control is one of the key steps to helping the manufacturers to become much more digitized within the factory floor going forward. 

- All right. Now, Frank, I want to thank you for joining us too. Why don't you take a second to introduce yourself and your role within Advantech. 

- Hi, everyone. This is Frank from the Advantech. I belong to the industrial IoT DNCG Department. And myself in charge of the industrial ethernet switches and network infrastructure. And today, I'm very happy to shoot this video and share it with you guys about some of the TSN experience around Advantech. Thank you. 

- As head of the IoT iConnectivity Group, I'm sure that you're keenly aware of this digital transformation. So can you share with us your observations about the automation industry's adoption of this TSN technology? Is it just another new capability we put in our bag? Or is this a game changer? 

- Regarding to the industrial communication, I think it goes through many, many years already. And to start a long time ago, everybody starts using the serial communication and gradually move to the industrial ethernet. But, of course, there's some challenge and difficulty, pump actually the market and automation field so that the OT and the IT integration getting more and more challenged nowadays so that is the latest the TSN technology that we can have the more better efficiency, higher productivity for the automation process so that will be a very huge contribution nowadays. 

So with the time goes by, I think more and more the factory automation and all the process control or maybe like EV cars or maybe like a railway or a human life-related. Those challenging and critical applications so that I think that would be very important that we implement TSN technology for our future assets. Yeah. 

- So you said you think this technology is very important. And we need to be adopting it. In your experience, what do you see as the pain points that our current communication technologies are causing? And where is this TSN technology going to help solve for those pain points? What's the benefit of the real-time communication? And what's that going to bring to the automation world? And then finally, how will Advantech leverage that capability? 

- Well, I borrowed this for, I think-- for a long time ago, everybody gets used to their serial communication already such as RS-232, RS-422 for this kind of technology. There's a lot of limitation for the speed, like, RS-232 maximum or maybe only 2.3 megabit per second and maybe move to the industrial internet, although the boundary's getting better and better, like a 10 or 100 or Vega, even 10G speed, the speed getting higher and higher and the bandwidth wider and wider. 

But that is a kind of sheer media so that all the applications trying to use the same media, they were causing a lot of troubles. Because some congestion might happen, some conflict. Or maybe some real control issue, something. That will cause a lot of headache for all mentioned people. 

Since that  ethernet cause embedded and quite easy to use, easy to integration technology. But with this kind of shared media concept, that would be a very challenge for them. So as time goes by, the TSN popper trader market times still DNA world. 

That means that, oh, if the technology or the site has more critical about the precision, about latency, or those kind of concern-- so they must choose the better technology which is TSN. So TSN can solve a lot of pain points from the previous old legacy devices technology. 

So we know that the TSN getting more popular in New Guinea nowadays. But I think still require a lot of integration test and maybe a software integration so that we need a partner like Movensys with the software integration. That is a very huge topic because Advantech is very good at the hardware and some of the tooling. 

But without the software integration and combine different kind of vendors for different solutions, like POC I/O server, something. So that would be very tiny still. So with the software and hardware integration, I think we can solve a lot of pain points in the future. 

- Yeah, most of the legacy controllers such as the PLC or the robot controllers, it causes inconvenience incompatibility due to the vendor lock in. So what does this vendor lock-in do to the customer? Actually, it forces the customer to buy the total solution from that particular vendor. So you're locked into that particular protocol. 

So bottom line is it will increase the total cost of ownership. That's one of the major challenges that the customer face today. Second is if you look at the semiconductor market itself, I would say the space itself is very premium in terms of their plant floor. They want to be able to reduce the size of the machines to be able to get higher throughput of actually manufacturing more wafers. 

So having said that, one thing that we have seen in the semiconductor is they actually wanted to have an open platform to be able to reduce the machine size altogether. So they've actually turned to the software-based motion controller from Movensys to be able to reduce the number of hardware which in fact will reduce the cabling and help reduce the size of the machines altogether. So that's what we see within the semiconductor. We believe that TSN will definitely be able to open up new markets for that particular market going forward. 

- OK, when doing a cost-benefit analysis of making that transition, what factors do you see driving companies to make this change? And what do potential adoptees need to consider? 

- Well, I think TSN's very new technology nowadays because TSN still not much implement a number of cases even in recently. But I think the TSN is a very good technology, and we must try to use it. But first of all, when we choosing a TSN technology, at first, we need to think about what kind of productivity we need and what kind of performance we want for the system. 

And after that, we set out some targets. We call it step point. We have some ideas what kind of performance, what kind of target we need. And we move on to design our system so that not only took about the hardware's over something. I think the target is very important. Otherwise, that were highly related to the cost or kind of expense for the system implementation. 

So from my point of view, we want to have a more accuracy performance and production for the AOGs for our new factories or new system or maybe like a latest EV car or a railway something. OK, I think we must very accuracy to point out the main topic about the performance. OK, what kind of performance. And that way, e4 and maybe into the cost, we're going to invest, OK. So that part is very important. 

So after we have the target, then we need to come up, oh, what kind of solution we need to put in the systems, including a software module, including hardware modules and how we integrate what kind of language you were going to use. Because if this guy talking about the French, if this guy talking about the English-- and maybe I talk about Chinese. 

So all these different kind of language, you cannot combine together. So with the same language talking each other between the upside and each device. And Industrial Ethernet by TSN in the middle as a transparent and cooperate each other’s so that we can have better performers that can meet our target performance. 

OK, so this is very important. And when there's customers, they are trying to implement taste TSN technology, I think we need to consider different parts. And also, different targets very good at computing and communication so that we have many industrial PC and industrial communication devices as my department. And now we have more and more devices that support the TSN. 

The first models, we can have a tempo. And gradually, we can have a ding bell like, each, give a different type of the TSN products that can meet the needs. And we have a very good technology about redundant ring and the chain technology so that we can improve the system by the very flexible way and redundant capacity. OK. So this is the idea that we're going to offer to you when you're going to implement the TSN. Thank you. 

- Tell us more about Movensys and your motion controller. 

- Movensys is a market share leader when it comes to the soft motion platform. It is a motion platform that has a modular architecture. It has both the soft motion developed at the MIT. At the same time, we have a soft master for both the EtherCAT as well as TSN. 

With these various control platforms developed experiences, TSN, the CC-Link IE TSN was recently released after demanding verification process. Within the software controller for TSN is recognized as first in the industry. That's why we're very excited to be work with Advantech at the moment. 

We have the capabilities as well as experiences to develop any other protocols with the TSN with CC-Link IE TSN being the first to develop the core technologies for the TSN motion control. 

So one of the discussions I've had with Frank was to see if we could actually develop a demo kit that includes the Advantech TSN switch along with our WMX for TSN. So one of the key benefits of utilizing this demo kit is to be able to have a hybrid system. 

What that means is if the customers already have EtherCAT network and they want to be able to use the TSN, by using the WMX, the software-based motion controller from Movensys, you're able to have a hybrid between EtherCAT, as well as TSN, to be able to monitor all at the same time. 

- What can Advantech do to help drive this adoption? 

- One of the key things about the open protocol that I really am adamant about is the compatibility. I think the vendor locking is a major issue that customer faces. So by working with Advantech, having the displays of TSN, having our master for TSN, that compatibility working the best of breed solution is one of our goals. That's why it's very important to have this partnership between us and Advantech moving forward to really to expand the TSN market altogether. 

All right, Frank, I've got a quick question. As Movensys is a soft master for TSN provider, can you give us a glimpse of the TSN product portfolio that you see from Advantech going forward? 

- OK, regarding to the protocols, as I mentioned, a language. And the band here now is focused on the various kind of a fuel bus protocol compared to the internet-based protocol now. So including, like, ASCII Modbus RTU compared to Modbus TCP, this is a very basic and fundamental. And gradually, we will have a property bus to property net. 

And, of course, the CC-Link-- CC-Link the i.e., CC-Link IE TSN, that is our focus because I think low support was very important. And based on market share point of view, well, everybody is trying to do their best to occupy the market, right? 

- Now, Roy mentioned earlier that Movensys and Advantech had worked on a demo of this integrated technology. Can you tell us more about that? 

- OK, I think the demo was only a small portion of the whole system. So if we're going to look at our large-scale assistance, there will be a lot of parts, a lot of stops that help the vacuum line or something. So take like, a maybe car assembly line, for examples. 

When there's a different shops and running it in a season, same production lines, of course, we need to set out a stop sent by stop. And we need to implement and able to parch over there. And based on this demo kit, we can see that, oh, wow, this is portion of the whole entire system. From small portion, we can see the large portion. 

So based on this demo kit, we can see that this is software. So we're tourist and so, well, integration, the programs and go to the, like, for example, Advantech industry PC [INAUDIBLE], then goes through the industrial ethernet TSN switches, then go to the edge devices so that by those [INAUDIBLE] and [INAUDIBLE] 5088 presents time protocol. 

So you can see the time synchronization very accuracy for those software and each device together. So when you look at this small portion of the demo kit, you can imagination that, oh, you have a huge battery. And you have hundreds of PRC. How to sync all of the PRCs and devices together with a more reliable way and the business way. 

So this is the idea that we're going to show you. So the best sound day, the bonus is that the demo box here. OK, I think we try to set out a idea for all our audience that, oh, you can implement that this way to help for your large scale system. 

- How do you see this TSN protocol adoption growing? And where in your opinion will it begin? 

- Like I've mentioned earlier, the adoption for new protocols takes time. And the TSN right now, Mitsubishi's leading the effort. And how the other manufacturers adopted TSN, I think, that will dictate how fast the market will take the TSN protocol. 

And right now, if we do see any success at-- initially, it would be in Japan because Mitsubishi is pushing a lot with the CC-Link IE TSN. Now, having said that, if the other major vendors are investing into TSNs, that itself will definitely ramp up the adoption of TSN going forward. 

- So Roy, do you have any real world examples or company examples that you can talk to us about? 

- If you look at EtherCAT, it took time to actually ramp up. And one industry that actually took the EtherCAT to the next level is the semiconductors altogether. I believe that TSN itself needs to have an industry where it's going to take off. Right now, Mitsubishi is investing a lot into the TSN. And they have the CC-Link IE TSN. 

And today, if you look at Mitsubishi, they are very strong all over Asia, especially in the display markets. And I believe that's where the TSN would definitely take off in the future. And our success right now, we are working very closely with Mitsubishi. And if Mitsubishi takes off with TSN, we'll definitely take off with them together. 

- OK, final question. We've talked about the integration and the demo kit in general. But can you tell us more specifically about the Advantech offering and what will be available for this type of integration? 

FRANK KUO: Advantech already well-known brands for the industrial PC. And of course, our industrial networking solution are getting more and more nowadays, including the wired and wireless solution and all kind of gateway solutions so that for those TSN solutions, we can converge on legacy device to the pure ethernet may work, then go to the a computing power. 

So this is what Advantech can offer to you. So with time goes by, I think we will develop more and more suitable products for our customers, OK. And welcome to talk to Advantech. And we will offer you the right solution for your automation process. OK, thank you. 

- And with that, our time's come to an end. I want to thank my two guests-- from Movensys, Roy Pak, and from Advantech, Frank Kuo for sharing your time, your expertise, and your insights with us today. I want to thank both of you. 

And to our audience, I want to thank you for joining us on Advantech's InnoTalk. As always, if you have any questions or would like more information on anything that you've heard here today, you can reach out to us at www.Advantech.com. 

Now, you can also reach out to us at iiot.tech@advantech.com. That's I-I-O-T-- period-- T-E-C-H-- @advantech.com. We look forward to seeing you online and answering any and all of your questions, anything that came out of today's discussion or your previous talk. For Advantech, I'm Matt Dentino. And I hope to see you again on our next InnoTalk. Until then, so long.